Might be a good time for a change,,, "Wood's No Good!" ;)

[Blaster]

For some time now I've been converting away from Wooden Racks to Aluminum "Pods" and with the coming, looking like an abbreviated, season I want to suggest some of you might consider investing some of the extra time we all have, to making the change (I had a thread like this at PyroU).

Wood is Dangerous because of it's weight and the potential shrapnel it creates, taxes you and your crews time & effort, and takes up too much room to store and transport. Wood's cheap and ole' school but, if you're in this for the Long Run, it's No Bargain...

A brief history of me and my equipment progression. Started in the 80's with Steel pipe and Wood/Cardboard finale racks, manually fired with road flares (the tech of the times). Set-up was sorting shells by both size and quality (boxes came mixed) and we'd put the best shells in the ready boxes first so they got fired towards the end of the show (that was kind of the extent of it).

In the 90's it became clear that Electric Firing was the future but, if every shell now needed a separate tube, the equipment requirements seemed overwhelming (not to mention set-up & tear-down). First time I saw a Firing Trailer, I Knew that this was the Only way to go (started to build mine in '97).

First time I saw an Aluminum Pod I, Knew that this was the future of Firing for me and my, now Aging, crew (started to build mine in '14). Pods are like portable Trailer Pieces.

It went like this, since I had a trailer (@350 tubes in 4-5-6") I was making Finale Pods first. I made 6 - 3", 2 - 2 1/2", and 2 - 4". The 3" were 60 tubes, the 2 1/2 90 tubes, the 4" 30 (same as the case quantities for efficiency). It still surprises me how much time it takes to make each pod, I spent months making them, most of the Winter. Because I needed mostly 3 & 2 1/2", and they had the most welds, I made fixtures to hold everything in alignment (Aluminum welds "warp" structure much more than steel). The next Winter, 2 more of each of those sizes, and each year I added, at least, one more pod until today I have 8-3", 4-2.5", 5-4", 4-5", 3-6". So this has expanded past Finale and now allows the body of the show to come from more than just the trailers location (plus pairs/sets look like they should).

Now for the "stumbling block" for some of you. Money,,, each pod costs over $300 in materials Alone (without tubes) and, takes me at least, a week to make. Plus,,, you Have to weld them yourself. The level of skill it takes, times the Hours of Welding, makes it too expensive to Pay someone to do for you. The good news is that Welders have become much cheaper and easier to use and there's a Tremendous amount of help on the net for learning.

Again, if you're in this for the Long Haul, amortized over say the next 10yrs, you'll save enough on Labor Alone to have all this Money & Effort pay-off (you still have to Load it all, but laying-out the field and putting it all back in the truck happens So Quickly it will Amaze you )

 

[CFD902]

Blaster, we purchased a trailer with 4 and 5 grids on it and from there made an additional 12 of each size. On the additional ones we made did not have bottoms on them so we had to throw the tubes into the truck. These are definitely the way to go.

 

[Eric]

I did not see anywhere in your post about 1.4 vs 1.3, but based on your comments it appears you are referring to 2.0" and bigger guns and this is for display companies. I'm 99% sure that backyard-consumer pyros don't want to drop this kind of money nor do they have the time to invest in making these racks, so wood will always win because the cost is much less.

Do you have specific stories of someone getting hurting with a metal rack or a wooden rack from it "exploding?" I'd have to think about this more, but my first thought is that I'd rather be scraped/injured from a piece of wood than a piece of metal. I know it's different, but they don't make pipe bombs from wood do they?

Those are really nice racks and I know they are light with no tubes. So I can see how it would be easier moving them with no tubes, but with tubes those look like they weigh 100 to 200lbs each.

What about NFA (or whatever group it is) that recommends spacers being 1/2" the diameter of tube?

You also said 10 years as far as cost goes. So I spend $300 for a rack that last 10 years... and compare this what? A wooden rack? I make a wooden rack for $50.00 and it breaks in 5 years... I build another one, another $50.00.... I'm at $100.00 for the rack over 10 years.... I'm still saving $200 if I use wood.... not sure I'm following.... can you shed some light on this?

Not trying to stir things up, just trying to get a better grip of what you are trying to say. So I'm all ears and open to your thoughts.

 

[Blaster]

Blaster, we purchased a trailer with 4 and 5 grids on it and from there made an additional 12 of each size. On the additional ones we made did not have bottoms on them so we had to throw the tubes into the truck. These are definitely the way to go.

You know,,, once you start using a Trailer, it's hard to imagine going back to lugging around the racks it replaced!

So, Pods are like the additional tubes you added to your trailer but, more Flexible....

I did not see anywhere in your post about 1.4 vs 1.3, but based on your comments it appears you are referring to 2.0" and bigger guns and this is for display companies. I'm 99% sure that backyard-consumer pyros don't want to drop this kind of money nor do they have the time to invest in making these racks, so wood will always win because the cost is much less.

Do you have specific stories of someone getting hurting with a metal rack or a wooden rack from it "exploding?" I'd have to think about this more, but my first thought is that I'd rather be scraped/injured from a piece of wood than a piece of metal. I know it's different, but they don't make pipe bombs from wood do they?

Those are really nice racks and I know they are light with no tubes. So I can see how it would be easier moving them with no tubes, but with tubes those look like they weigh 100 to 200lbs each.

What about NFA (or whatever group it is) that recommends spacers being 1/2" the diameter of tube?

You also said 10 years as far as cost goes. So I spend $300 for a rack that last 10 years... and compare this what? A wooden rack? I make a wooden rack for $50.00 and it breaks in 5 years... I build another one, another $50.00.... I'm at $100.00 for the rack over 10 years.... I'm still saving $200 if I use wood.... not sure I'm following.... can you shed some light on this?

Not trying to stir things up, just trying to get a better grip of what you are trying to say. So I'm all ears and open to your thoughts.

Oh dude,,, you're definitely over-your-head here

Yea, this is for Professionals....

 

[Fuse]

Very nice metal racks, I see the giant hand cart you use to move them in one of the pic.'s, they do look heavy. We're still wood rack based, sometimes we'll use our wood racks on top of a rented trailer as a shoot trailer. As you say, the real savings of your metal approach is not assembling/disassembling wood racks in the field. The advantage of wood racks is being able to construct pods at more exact densities(eg. - *10 tube racks vs. 100 tube racks), especially useful when you need to optimize every single tube you have across multiple displays. A buddy of mine takes an inexpensive approach to build shoot trailers to support multiple shoots in a Season. He'll rent flatbed trailers and assemble wooden tube boxes with sand separation in the quantity of tubes he needs for each show. He'll leave room in the middle for folks to wire, but also useful to carry finale racks to field. Certainly not as cool as your metal racks or permanent trailers, but at the end of July 4th week he'll take all the tubes out and stack them for storage, takes the wood boxes apart and stacks them, and puts the sand back in his pile(he hates cats...). An then he returns the rental trailers. He just doesn't have much invested in racks(except for angles and finales), and he can run multiple shoot trailers at the same time with minimal investment.

 

[Eric]

Not sure what you mean by "over your head," but if you can read my message again I'd love to hear you answer my questions.

 

[BigTopCanada]

Eric he is telling you you do not understand the science behind rack design.

Properly built aluminum and steel racks do not produce shrapnel when shells explode in them.

There is no shortage of incidents where people were hit by pieces of wood racks when a shell exploded in the mortar. There is a guy here in Canada a number of years ago that had both his legs broken by a flying piece of a wood rack.

Aside from the hurdle of the expense of the welder you can build steel racks cheaper than wood. 5/16 mild steel rod welded into a grid with steel legs works. the most important thing is to have enough space between the mortars. I have tested it with 3" salutes and 6" shells exploded in the mortar. The result that you want is a shell explodes in 1 mortar and all the other mortars remain pointed up . Everyone should test their racks by exploding a shell in the mortar with everyone at a safe distance to see how they perform when there is an in mortar explosion. I have learned from doing this that you never know what will happen until you blow it up.

 

[Eric]

Thanks BigTopCanada for the info. I just don't understand enough about metal display racks and was trying to get some info on them in regards to what Blaster was saying. There was not much data there to support his statements, at least to me it did not appear there was, and I was trying to get a grip of what he meant. I appreciate the insight.

So you saying steel racks are cheaper than wood? I'm guess I'm in the dark. I thought steel was more expensive than wood.

I agree, doing an up-side-down shell test is a good idea and I agree that steel takes up less real estate (materials) so when you do have a cato there is "breathing" room. I am 100% a well-built and structurally sound steel rack will always hold up better than wood.

 

[CFD902]

We use aluminum grids for our 4s and 5s and steel for 6s and 8s. They may be more expensive than wood but lets take an example, you need 6- 5 shot racks of 4s to equal 1 4 inch grid. When you have over 200 4s in a show do the math on weather you want to throw racks or grids into the truck at the end of the night. I would say it cuts set- up and tear down at least 3 hours or more.

 

[Blaster]

Not sure what you mean by "over your head," but if you can read my message again I'd love to hear you answer my questions.

Sorry for being dismissive, but you didn't seem to comprehend what I was describing...

1.4 or 1.3 ? You see 6" ~ should be obvious

If you aren't aware of the dangers of an exploding rack, you Should be (maybe it's not such an issue with 1.4).

The tubes are Always in them (you see the pictures - right?) and your guess of 200lbs in right-on-the-Money. That Lg Yellow hand truck (HF special $75) rolls them around easily. But again, these are on Professional Shows, they come In/Out of the truck with a Lift Gate. No problem for one person to move at all.

In my state (CT) these do not meet the regs as far as spacing, consequently I have to apply to the SFM (State Fire Marshall's) office for what's called a "Mod" (modification of the regs). This is true of the trailer too (been getting mods for 20yrs), and both refereed to as "Dense Pack". At the SFM's office they are, and have Always been, a fan of this technology. They see the safety aspect first and foremost. That bottom "grid" framework is Below the top of the plug inside the tube so, an explosion there "Vents" without being restricted by structure and therefore, reduces the shrapnel Wood racks can produce.

We're talking Apples / Oranges here with respect to rack costs (your consumer ~vs~ pro racks). Think of what just a Single 5" Rack costs (remember there's a 5X5" plug in the bottom of the tube) and lots of Wood surrounding them. There are 5 - 5" Racks in a Pod. The 3" Pod holds Six Racks worth (you know Math ~ Right?) and not any kind of a $50 replacement.

Your post seemed to reflect either the inability to think beyond your own experience of a Complete lack of reading comprehension (but I shouldn't have been dismissive...)

Aside from the hurdle of the expense of the welder you can build steel racks cheaper than wood. 5/16 mild steel rod welded into a grid with steel legs works. the most important thing is to have enough space between the mortars.

Yea I don't mean to say that this can't be done in Steel. You'd end-up with a much heaver pod, but you wouldn't need the same level of skill or the expense of the appropriate welder. You could Mig the whole thing up with a $300 Mig Welder as opposed to $2,000 for a watercooled TIG welder (even a MIG welder capable of welding 1/4" Aluminium would come close to that). The Labor would be the same though and the components only slightly cheaper. I encourage anyone who has welding experience to "Step-Up" to being able to do Aluminum for the benefits (you can't beat that No Rust thing )

 

[BigTopCanada]

I agree aluminum racks are better and my steel racks are rusty. My business is mostly a ship show and wholesale display fireworks sales . I like to provide my ship show customers with racks and mortars which I do at no charge. That way I know they have a mortar for every shell so no dangerous reloading and the racks won't blow apart or fall over. It keeps everyone safe and reduces the risk of liability for my company. So you can see why I need racks that are safe and cheap. The rack pictures below holds 36 3" mortars and the cost of materials is $29.11 USD. I do not allow salutes to be shot out of this rack. The racks for 3" salutes have separation of the mortars of 3 1/2".



Also don't discount that serious accidents can occur with 1.4G. I know a guy in the USA that had a milk crate full of mortars blow apart and send a shell right under a lawn chair a young girl was sitting on. The shell caused horrible injuries to the extent that it was expected the girl would not be able to have children when she grew up.

 

[Blaster]

What's a "ship show"? This is a show you "ship" to the end user that has everything they'll need?

I can tell ya right now,,, don't show up in CT with that

We're pretty stringent in what they will allow on site and that would Never Fly under any circumstances! (it would certainly be deemed "unsafe" here....)

 

[Eric]

Thanks for the info Blaster. I was just wanted to get a better understanding. I know there is only so much room in a post for the thread topic, but the thread topic caught my eye. I appreciate your clarification. Anyone who can make anything from any type of metal is impressive.

I actually like your racks Blaster. What I really like is that they are HDPE and not fiberglass. This means they are probably made in the country where you live. Where do you get HDPE mortars from or you do make them yourself?

 

[BigTopCanada]

Yes a ship show is a show shipped to the end user. The end user here in Canada is a certified Display Supervisor. To have that certification you have to take and pass the federal government course which allows you to be a display assistant. Then you work a minimum of 3 shows with a certified Display Supervisor. When the certified Display Supervisor is satisfied that you are competent to shoot a display fireworks show they provide a reference letter that allows you to upgrade to a Display Supervisor. With that certification and a federal government form signed off by the local government (Usually handled by the local fire department) an end user can buy display fireworks from me for use at the date and time allowed by the local government.

So as you can see there is substantial training and regulatory control over Display Fireworks sales.

 

[Blaster]

I actually like your racks Blaster. What I really like is that they are HDPE and not fiberglass. This means they are probably made in the country where you live. Where do you get HDPE mortars from or you do make them yourself?

Actually the tubes come out of Wooden racks that are being "retired"

Yes a ship show is a show shipped to the end user. The end user here in Canada is a certified Display Supervisor. To have that certification you have to take and pass the federal government course which allows you to be a display assistant. Then you work a minimum of 3 shows with a certified Display Supervisor. When the certified Display Supervisor is satisfied that you are competent to shoot a display fireworks show they provide a reference letter that allows you to upgrade to a Display Supervisor. With that certification and a federal government form signed off by the local government (Usually handled by the local fire department) an end user can buy display fireworks from me for use at the date and time allowed by the local government.

So as you can see there is substantial training and regulatory control over Display Fireworks sales.

So that's much like what happens here I think, the "certification" process I mean, never heard of "ship shows" termed that way here.

Typically, a fireworks company sells the show and pays independent display operators (like me) to fire them during the season, when they don't have enough full-time employees of their own to cover. Because of all the regulations concerning things Importation, Transportation, Storage, Insurance, etc. there's not many Operators who can do all that for themselves (and it's only getting worse of course).

 

[BigTopCanada]

I also sell shows and have a independent operator shoot the show but in my operation I usually supply the equipment and fireworks. The independent operator uses their vehicle, tools and crew to setup and shoot the show. This makes up only a small part of my business.

There are certified Display Supervisors in small towns often on the volunteer fire department all across the country. They will shoot the fireworks show for the town and sometime for a few small towns around them. This is where the market for the ship shows comes from. I think it is a feature of our mostly big empty country. It is too expensive for a small remote town to bring in a company to shoot what is usually a small budget show.

I get what you are saying about the Importation, Transportation, Storage, insurance and everything else. It is a large part of what I do taking care of those logistics and it seems like a constant struggle to make everything work.

 

[ZachM]

For some time now I've been converting away from Wooden Racks to Aluminum "Pods" and with the coming, looking like an abbreviated, season I want to suggest some of you might consider investing some of the extra time we all have, to making the change (I had a thread like this at PyroU).

Wood is Dangerous because of it's weight and the potential shrapnel it creates, taxes you and your crews time & effort, and takes up too much room to store and transport. Wood's cheap and ole' school but, if you're in this for the Long Run, it's No Bargain...

A brief history of me and my equipment progression. Started in the 80's with Steel pipe and Wood/Cardboard finale racks, manually fired with road flares (the tech of the times). Set-up was sorting shells by both size and quality (boxes came mixed) and we'd put the best shells in the ready boxes first so they got fired towards the end of the show (that was kind of the extent of it).

In the 90's it became clear that Electric Firing was the future but, if every shell now needed a separate tube, the equipment requirements seemed overwhelming (not to mention set-up & tear-down). First time I saw a Firing Trailer, I Knew that this was the Only way to go (started to build mine in '97).

First time I saw an Aluminum Pod I, Knew that this was the future of Firing for me and my, now Aging, crew (started to build mine in '14). Pods are like portable Trailer Pieces.

It went like this, since I had a trailer (@350 tubes in 4-5-6") I was making Finale Pods first. I made 6 - 3", 2 - 2 1/2", and 2 - 4". The 3" were 60 tubes, the 2 1/2 90 tubes, the 4" 30 (same as the case quantities for efficiency). It still surprises me how much time it takes to make each pod, I spent months making them, most of the Winter. Because I needed mostly 3 & 2 1/2", and they had the most welds, I made fixtures to hold everything in alignment (Aluminum welds "warp" structure much more than steel). The next Winter, 2 more of each of those sizes, and each year I added, at least, one more pod until today I have 8-3", 4-2.5", 5-4", 4-5", 3-6". So this has expanded past Finale and now allows the body of the show to come from more than just the trailers location (plus pairs/sets look like they should).

Now for the "stumbling block" for some of you. Money,,, each pod costs over $300 in materials Alone (without tubes) and, takes me at least, a week to make. Plus,,, you Have to weld them yourself. The level of skill it takes, times the Hours of Welding, makes it too expensive to Pay someone to do for you. The good news is that Welders have become much cheaper and easier to use and there's a Tremendous amount of help on the net for learning.

Again, if you're in this for the Long Haul, amortized over say the next 10yrs, you'll save enough on Labor Alone to have all this Money & Effort pay-off (you still have to Load it all, but laying-out the field and putting it all back in the truck happens So Quickly it will Amaze you )

Some questions on the racks. What wall thickness did you end up going with? Also grid looks to be made of tube with flat bar? So pretty much 2 of the grids welded with angle In bewteen. Sweet build!

 

[BigTopCanada]

The rack is made of 5/16" mild steel rod. The angles with the bolts welded on are 1/8 x 1" x 1" angle.The legs are 3/16 x1 1/4 flatbar. The 3" mortars are DR17 hdpe pipe. The rack folds flat and can be carried in 1 hand. Mortars can be transported inside larger mortars. So a bunch of these racks with mortars are very compact. The guys that shoot for me prefer them over my trailers for longer trips. They save money on gas not towing a trailer.

I am putting this info out there because the way I look at is more racks that don't blow up and fall over is good for everyone. What ever kind of rack you build test your construction to be sure it performs safely in the event of an in mortar explosion. I have tested this design and the mortars remain upright when there is an in mortar explosion. If you build something similar test it. Years of rack testing has taught me you never know what happens until you blow it up. Many times I was sure I had a good design and it failed.

 

[Fuse]

Ship Shows in the South are fairly common. Hance Fireworks in Oklahoma & Arkansas offer Ship Shows to small towns & cities, they provide product, firing systems, and tubes/racks, and give the entity 10% off the show price if their staff will shoot it. They give the Oklahoma Shooter's Class to get folks licenced, when I attended the class it was mostly First Responders taking who then planned to shoot their town's show for them. Hance probably does 30-40 July 4th displays this way. As well, they offer turnkey retail fireworks stands as fundraisers, giving a cut to the entity that will staff a stand during the season. displaysafety

 

[SpreadFire1A]

I did not see anywhere in your post about 1.4 vs 1.3, but based on your comments it appears you are referring to 2.0" and bigger guns and this is for display companies. I'm 99% sure that backyard-consumer pyros don't want to drop this kind of money nor do they have the time to invest in making these racks, so wood will always win because the cost is much less.

Do you have specific stories of someone getting hurting with a metal rack or a wooden rack from it "exploding?" I'd have to think about this more, but my first thought is that I'd rather be scraped/injured from a piece of wood than a piece of metal. I know it's different, but they don't make pipe bombs from wood do they?

Those are really nice racks and I know they are light with no tubes. So I can see how it would be easier moving them with no tubes, but with tubes those look like they weigh 100 to 200lbs each.

What about NFA (or whatever group it is) that recommends spacers being 1/2" the diameter of tube?

You also said 10 years as far as cost goes. So I spend $300 for a rack that last 10 years... and compare this what? A wooden rack? I make a wooden rack for $50.00 and it breaks in 5 years... I build another one, another $50.00.... I'm at $100.00 for the rack over 10 years.... I'm still saving $200 if I use wood.... not sure I'm following.... can you shed some light on this?

Not trying to stir things up, just trying to get a better grip of what you are trying to say. So I'm all ears and open to your thoughts.

For what it's worth, I make aluminum racks, having inproved upon the old ATF design, and have also made similar pods. Aluminum tends to be low-mass, so it's not as dangerous as steel, and it also tends to not fragment like wood and/or steel. It's definitely safer.